Wednesday, August 5, 2009

Hybrid vs Pure dps

I know this topic has been argued into the ground... but after reading Player VS Developer's post something jumped out at me. Blizzard agrees with him that Pure dps should be higher by nature then that of Hybrid dps. To a point I do as well... but then I got to thinking.

The argument is that because hybrids have the ability to heal or tank, in addition to dps, that they shouldn't be able to do as much damage as those who are pure. Pure dps refers to Hunters, Warlocks, Mages, and Rogues. Hybrids refer too... well everyone else.

There are 2 points that I want to present.
  1. Pure DPS are less limited by threat due to having Threat Dumps.
  2. Hybrids CANNOT dps while healing.

Threat Dumps refer to Feign Death(hunters), Soul Shatter (warlocks), Invisibility (mages), and Vanish (rogue). Pure classes have the ability that, if they pull threat, they can get rid of that extra threat and not get eaten by the boss. Now all dps (except hunters) have threat reduction talents so that they can deal more damage without pulling aggro. The difference though is that when a hybrid pulls aggro... they have no option but to stand there and get squished.

Priests come closest to having a threat dump in fade... but that threat gets returned to the priest once fade wears off. Additionally that talent is more to compensate for healing priests being extra squishy compared to other healers.

I'm usually second in dps in our 10 mans and top 5 in 25 mans on my shaman. Yay for me right? Well on fights like Hodir I'm constantly riding the threat line of our tanks. This means that if I'm not careful I will pull aggro and die. This means sometimes I actually have to stop dpsing to let the tank build up. The pure dps... just reaches the threat cap and pops their respective abilities and go right back at it.

What happens in the above scenario when the tank dies? Or in our case gets flash frozen and bubbles /glare. Well MR. Hodir comes over and smacks me with his big giant mace and then turns around to go after the rogue. The rogue says LOLVANISH and Hodir goes to find someone else.

For the record... being able to heal isn't going to save you from a boss one shot... nor is throwing on a shield or switching to bear form. If you pull aggro as a Hybrid you are left to the mercy of the tanks taunts (though I did survive a melee hit from Archavon once).

The second point
is really the one I've been thinking of a lot lately. You see I've talked about it before, and while yes being able to spot heal can save an encounter... so can some extra dps. Blizzard says that because we have the ability to heal, that we should be lower then pure classes in terms of damage. Why? My role in a group is DPS the fact that I can heal alone IS a dps decrease.

When I have to stop and heal myself, or a tank, or that dps who wouldn't get out of the fire, I'm losing dps. The time it takes for me to cast a lesser healing wave is the same amount of time that I could have been casting a lightning bolt. The last time I can ever remember going an entire fight without casting a single heal is Patchwerk. Every other fight I've done there are times where I have had to stop and heal "someone". That ability to heal costs me damage.

Don't get me wrong... I love playing a hybrid... but there are times I wish I could just straight dps through a fight... just to see what my actual potential is. I may never catch the rogue in our group in damage... but I hope that it isn't because of some "5%" difference inherently between us. There have been a number of times where I have been low on damage... only to flip to the heal meters to see the missing dps in hps.

I'm very competitive... to the point where I want to start bringing my hunter into raids just so I can focus on one job... Killing stuff.


Argon said...

Paladins have Hand of Salvation, which is pretty good, and can be used on other people.

I think Blizzard has said they want pure DPS to be slightly higher because they can't respec to a different role, not because of utility.

They are definitely pretty far from their ideal of having pure 5% higher. Feral druids are really high right now, for instance.

Anonymous said...

Exacly, you're looking at it in a wrong way. See, in a world of min-maxing what a pure class is worth if hybrid can do the same dps AND something else (ofc not in the same time)? Nothing. Or a lot less than a hybrid. It is the only thing pures can do - dps. They can't switch to heal in crucial moments (more in terms of spec switch than tossing heal here and there on every boss fight), they can't switch to tank spec for a fight where more of them is needed. Only thing they could do then is to reroll some usefull class (=hybrid), so they could bring something more just than dps and redundand buffs. While hybrid have an ability to just change specs and stay.

See the difference? That's why pures need their advantage.

Oh, and if you have problem with threat, tell your tanks to stop slacking. Might help.

Fall Out Mommy said...

My warlock is for the suck when it comes to healing i.e. it has NO healing abilities unless you count the fact that I can make a healthstone to use ONCE or using sacrifice on the voidwaker, but who uses a voidwalker while raiding?

And I totally say go DPS even though you are hybrid... just because you CAN heal doesn't mean you HAVE to. I know that you know the importance of keeping people alive.. but seriously... go DPS and see whether it's better to hit or heal. I'll give you a healthstone if you want :D


Leiandra said...

Playing a hybrid as a dps role, you shouldn't have to heal... not ever. You're healers should be able to keep up everyone, including the rogues. Maybe you're healers don't heal the rogue because they know you will. Just a thought. I'm obviously not in your raids, so I don't know.

And if you want to compare spells... you do have a nice little spell called Wind Shear. Not a complete agro dump, and yes it requires a GCD, but that's about it. It doesn't force you to sit around waiting for the 3 seconds to take effect like some spells (*cough* invisibility *cough*) that I know. And it's on a 8-second cooldown vs. the 3 minute cooldown of invis, soul shatter, vanish, and 30 seconds of feign death. Then there's Hand of Salvation (2 minutes) Cower (10 seconds)... but I think you're right on the two other plate dps though: couldn't find any agro reducing things for Warriors or Death Knights.

Whats my main Again? said...

@Argon- Yes paladins have hand of salvation but it won't save you if you pull aggro. You can use it proactively but still it isn't as usefull as a 100% or even 50% threat dump that pure classes have.

@ Anonymous- In the world of min maxing is exactly why a hybrid can't be below a pure class. Our ability to heal or switch specs or have options doesn't make the boss die faster.

If my role in a group is to do damage that is what I need to be doing. Anything I do beyond that drops my dps. No matter what group content you are doing you need more dps then healers and tanks so i'm sorry but no, you won't ever see a pure dps dropped because they can't heal or tank.

In min maxing you WILL see a hybrid dps forced to heal to bring in another pure dps if they are 5% above what hybrids can do.

As far as our tanks... the times I pull aggro are on fights like Hodir or Vezax that dps get a huge boost and at the same time it is difficult for a tank to keep up. It is very easy for a paladin tank to become threat capped even with a perfect rotation.

I've peaked at 20k dps during some of those fights and when I do I really have to be careful.

Leindra- you are right... I shouldn't have to heal... but way too often in our raids if I want to live... or down the boss I have to heal. We don't have the best healers in our raids unfortunatly.

The threat reduction things you mentioned aren't true threat dumps. Yes you can use them but they won't save you if you pull aggro. There was a time where I could winshear and drop enough threat... I still try to but I have yet to see it actually work.

Like I mentioned above the fights that I pull aggro on are fights where a 5% threat dump on a 6 sec cd isn't going to do much when my lava burst crits for 46k.

I've also found the mage invisibilty to be unreliable... thankfully they made it easier to use since the fade won't break on damage. Usually when I pull aggro on my mage I'm iceblocking before I use invisibility.

Whats my Main Again? said...

Oh and Hunny we tried that last night with H HoL... in the end I had to get on my shaman because the paladin healer couldn't be trusted to keep the group alive.